My Position; 'I Don't Know'

So- You want to debate?
With me??
Oh. I love to debate!
Ok, I'll hang in your space, maybe for a cup, or two.

Where do you want to go with it?
-I'm game, name your poison.

God, or gods- whatever's clever.

Let's play ball..

I'll start with a question that is proposed more than any other on this 'must have the last word' topic. How can I, and aprox.67.2% of the population worship/ or choose to believe in a God whose 'hypothetical exsistance' is responsible for more bloodshed, then any other reasons to date?

*I take a sip, contemplate*

Ok, here is where I stand- God is as resposible for global suffering..well..about as much as you are. He created US, gave US free will, laced US with hate, envy, greed, lust, knowledge.
He also loaded us with compassion, mercy, sacrifice, joy, love, and- knowledge.
All of which nuture and mature the spirit, when 'handled' correctly.
Here's the skinny- The whole free will, freedom of choice mantra. Over-rated, and exhausted in conversations world wide, I so agree, however, this remains the truth for those of us who believe in the galaxy super-star. I do.
I also believe that God does not reign over the flesh. Oh, he can forgive the acts of the flesh that are unpure/ or lead to unhealthy physical, and spiritual outcomes- but the flesh remains in a constant experiment with the 'fallen one'- or, as I like to refer to him; Temporary Wish-Master. Time, after time, this dark SOB, seems to hold rank. I think if you contemplate the balancing system throughout humanity, and focus on the condition of the dear planet, and earth creatures- you cannot deny, that evil is present, and to date seems to be really over powering the 'good'.
-Why does a loving God,- allow our flesh to make such choices, which inevitable lead to suffering?
Think about it, the answer really is quite simple. We are created in His image (or, at least that's what the lore states, right?)-Ok, God, too- then has choices; and He chose, way before this human circus even started procreating- to allow US to choose Him( the spirit creator of love, and life), or/ the flesh( our own understanding)- with each choice we make there are consequences- some rewarding, some punishing- all based on cause and effect- hey, that's just life- reguardless of what you believe.
God is NOT responsible for war. Nor, is God responsible for lives lost in His name- or soldiers that ' murder' in the name of christianity. Man-kind created these doctrins- or 'interpreted' these doctrines based on their own understandings. The only one responsible for such acts- are the HUMAN-BEINGS who commit them.
Why do 'christians' commit these acts- and tag God's name all over these declarations? hmm- Perhaps it helps them to conceive the act more humane. Perhaps, a miscontrued perception of scriptures. Perhaps 'voices' claiming to be the Almighty, ordered the massacres, I don't know.
Recently, a dear friend of mine who is Jewish, said, "Well, when God made man, and gave us magets free will-choice..big mistake of The Big Guys part."
So I asked him,"Stewart, tell me- do you want to be unconditionally loved by someone, because that person 'has' to love you, or, because they choose to love you? They- choose- you- sincerly."
- well, his answer- which by the way was 'so very Stewy' was,..honestly honey, I'll take it anyway I can get it!!", lol-gotta love the Stewmeister- but you gat the jist!
I also, unfortunately lost a good friend, when during a coraspondance- he stated that I didn't know the diffrence between religion, and spirituality. I was completely offended by this statement.
I absolutely know the diffrence, as I also know how they associate.
I realize religion is a man created, politally based structure, and in most cases insults spirituality.
I know spirituality does not involve the flesh- except in the matter where are senses are concerned/ or human interaction..which enriches the spirit.
~I also realize that thro' self discovery the two can exsist harmoniously.

To only recognize self-awareness, in my opinion- does not abolish religion, but creates yet another kind of religion! -unfortunately these 'righteous rescuers' don't even realize they have become, exactly what they have been trying to avoid.
So- why are my beliefs right, and yours wrong?

*Pour me another cup: let me contemplate*

Maybe yours, aren't wrong- Maybe mine aren't wrong-
Who knows.
Hey, bottom line is, 'it' works for me. If what you're doing works for you, well then, who am I to argue (or debate) such?
Fact is, I'm just a shell, with a spirit waiting to be unleashed...just like the next guy, just like you.
Fact is, actually- I don't know!
Fact is; neither do you!

*Would you like another cup o'joe, dear?- Let's debate.*

I smile, and toss you the ball...

This is an interactive invitation; subject, is subject- to go anywhere

Maddi

RE: My Position; 'I Don't Know'

Hi Maddi!!

Boy oh boy, you sure know how to pick a topic!! Don't ya know you should never debate politics or religion/god?? LOL - ok, I'm pouring a cup...thinking...


I am deeply spiritual - as you know! We have that in common for sure - which is no small thing.

The earth calls to me, nourishes me - I am of the earth. An act of kindness towards the earth and any of its inhabitants creates a flow of good energy; like a ripple in a pond. The goodness spreads out and you never know how many beings it will touch and possible change for the better.

I also believe all this - our planet, universe, etc was created by a random set of events. We are here by sheer luck. We have no greater purpose except what we choose to make our purpose. That's where the "good" vs "bad" comes in. Free will, ability to choose...all that. Our instinct (intuition) is diminished in direct relation to our ability to think intellectually. Ours is the only species that will choose to do something that may bring on our destruction (nuclear weapons development, for example). Our instinct/intuition would never lead us to create anything that could cause our extinction. The entire purpose of instinct/intuition is to make sure life-sustaining/perpetuating behaviors are chosen.

I also believe there is some sort of vital energy that flows everywhere; this life-energy is something we can tap into to enhance our spiritual connection. Since every single life form on earth is made essentially from the same "stuff", every single thing is interconnected (on many different levels). We can tap into that connected-ness and draw on the spirit energy, if we choose!

Anyway...I'm off track!! I don't believe there is a god or a devil. Just us over-evolved sapiens with too much time on our hands!!

Maddi, as you so insightfully stated, no one really knows! And, this works for me! LOL

I agree:
Fact is: I'm a shell holding a spirit...
Fact is: all living things are shells holding spirits...

Fact is: I don't know !!!

mmm, this coffee is good!

Luv ya, Maddi!!!

RE: My Position; 'I Don't Know'

Ok- cream/sugar??

not that ya need anymore sweetness


Ok- lot of thought to hit up on here K.
I'll start out with 'The earth calls to me, nourishes me - I am of the earth. An act of kindness towards the earth and any of its inhabitants creates a flow of good energy; like a ripple in a pond. The goodness spreads out and you never know how many beings it will touch and possible change for the better,- I'm with you there, and as you know I'm also 'freakishly spiritual' lol, but- the very fact that you refered to yourself 'spiritual'- has to raise question. If we are indeed here by off set circumstances, or 'luck' as you stated- then, spirituality would cease to exsist. Spirituality is derived from the spirit. I believe to stop the wonderment of 'how' this inner-presence exsists, or to denounce the fact that it mirrors a higher power, leaves only the 'shell'. Yes ripple effect- right on!-with a big pile of Mickey D's fries on top!!-But why the ripple of good/ or evil- without recognizing the structure, and importance of balance? EVERYTHING, is in balance..everything!- We would not recognize the light energy to highest enrichment of devine magnitude- without there being an equal amount of dark source. In other words, we would not enjoy the warm sun on our skin- if in fact, we were never freezing cold. We would not relish in the taste of fresh spring water, if we did not know thirst. We wouldn't feel dizzy-happy, without feeling the suffering of true saddness. Everything in our universe has a cause, has a reason- for balance! The depth we relate to this, grows through spirituality. The very seduction we encounter from nature, comes from more than a beating heart, or simply the fact that we were born..The very concept of exsistance is so complex, in ALL that exsists- that to possible write this off as 'chance' abolishes human reason- LIFE's reason.
Hang ten- I need another cup...

I have a theory; When we stop believing in 'something else'- 'something else' will stop believing in us. Does God/ the devil, exsist? hmm- well, if they don't, there certainly is alot of 'chance' that formed-with a direct balance, that doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense. In less of course the element of earth- or the galaxy created itself- with an uncomprehendable bio-chemical mind of it's own..but if this were the case, then wouldn't the universe itself be God? Everything scientifically based has a starting point- and then an evolution. So, how then, would/could, this starting point be possible without some unexplainable equation leading to the ratio?

ok-now i'll hit this statement 'I also believe there is some sort of vital energy that flows everywhere; this life-energy is something we can tap into to enhance our spiritual connection. Since every single life form on earth is made essentially from the same "stuff", every single thing is interconnected (on many different levels). We can tap into that connected-ness and draw on the spirit energy, if we choose' -again, I am WAY with you on this point sister. I refer to nature as my brothers and sisters. They are. as well as yours, and each and everyone of us. So- when you do tap into 'life'..which I am assuming is 24hrs a day, because of your awareness- doesn't that vibe- that energy, bring you strength? Bring you balance?- Joy? Love? Peace?- of course it does.. Since these elements evoke your spirit, how can anyone assume they come from us-alone.


There are just to many dang things that blow holes in the accidental theory. Look, if we are only here by accident- or chance, then there simply is no reason for intuition, or guilt, or higher states of being. There is no reason for love, or compassion, There is no reason for US, the design. -If everything happens for a reason, then there must be a plan which is created, a reason our children were chosen to live- and the reason they were chosen to be born to each parent specifically.
,,,if I am wrong- man o' man, we sure go thro' a heck of alot of bullshit for no valid reason, lol.

wanna another cup??-
hugz,Maddi

RE: My Position; 'I Don't Know'

I love having intelligent conversations!! Woot!

Okay, my second cup is at hand...

You said: If we are indeed here by off set circumstances, or 'luck' as you stated- then, spirituality would cease to exsist. Spirituality is derived from the spirit. I believe to stop the wonderment of 'how' this inner-presence exsists, or to denounce the fact that it mirrors a higher power, leaves only the 'shell'.

What I think: Whatever energy that existed to form our world/galaxy is still present. That energy is what I call spirit, what I identify with as spiritual connected-ness. I/we feel that energy because we are a part of it. Spirit is just the name we give it. I don't think it needs to mirror a higher power to give it credibility or meaning.

You said: When we stop believing in 'something else'- 'something else' will stop believing in us.

Maddi, I don't believe the "something else" has a consciousness. It's just energy. We are one of the tangible forms or shells of that energy - so are all animals, creatures and plants. We are the consciousness of that energy - we are aware of it, but its not aware of us. I'm ok with that!

You said: Look, if we are only here by accident- or chance, then there simply is no reason for intuition, or guilt, or higher states of being. There is no reason for love, or compassion, There is no reason for US, the design.

I agree - there is no reason! It just happened this way! We are what we are, and there isn't a specific reason for it. I don't know why we have intuition, guilt, and higher states of being, but we do. Love and compassion are survival traits for our species (and others, too). I don't believe we were created by a god or an omnipotent being. We are an advanced, intelligent, aware form - but we might also be the end of the evolutionary line that started from that energy.

Lakota Sioux called this energy the Great Mystery...I think that's the most accurate description there is.

I completely respect your opinion - we see so much in common, that the differences seem minor to me. I'm not trying to change your beliefs or opinions AT ALL! Just sharing mine

So I'll sip my joe, listen to the wind and feel glad to be alive

Last edited by kah 06-16-2010 at 02:40:14 PM

RE: My Position; 'I Don't Know'

Kah,

Your spiritual insight and mystical wisdom is
a pleasure to bathe in.

Let me add this: We are not humans having a spiritual experience,
we are spirit having a human experience; the experience of the five
senses is a pleasure for the spirit, which can only be accessed by
the density of matter that makes up the human body.

What resides in our consciousness is the fact that we are a manifestation
of invisible energy, energy that expands, contracts, and vibrates on all
kinds of frequencies which allows us to experience emotions and physical pleasures of all kinds.

Energy never dies, is never wasted, it simply is the one force that we, all of us,
are one part of—we are not separate from anything. Most religions say we are separate, that "GOD" is out there and we are down here. The fact is: Everything, everybody, is out there. We are that which we seek. Religion wants us to believe that we need an interpreter, and that god is basically unhappy with us.

I mean no disrespect to religion, but religion is an enemy to spirituality.
Some people will say that religion and spirituality are the same. They are not even close: Religion is a man-made force coming at us and spirit is the universal force coming out of us. Spirit is pure energy and religion is polluted and contrived energy.

Peace and Light,
Dah

RE: My Position; 'I Don't Know'

I want a cup of coco;

Here is something that stuck with me since I was 12.

It's on the Sy-Fy side, but the whole script is metaphors
for the poetic minds,
on world peace, enjoy this on your wide screen, and see what I mean.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZD_9TipDcg

John E WordSlinger

Last edited by WordSlinger 06-16-2010 at 06:32:42 PM

RE: My Position; 'I Don't Know'

- smiles-

I love this.
Ok- First, K.- 'What I think: Whatever energy that existed to form our world/galaxy is still present. That energy is what I call spirit, what I identify with as spiritual connected-ness. I/we feel that energy because we are a part of it. Spirit is just the name we give it. I don't think it needs to mirror a higher power to give it credibility or meaning.'-Kah
No, I don't think it has to mirror a higher power, I think that it does. Yes, i believe we feel energy because we to are energy- no argument on that level( I mean look at how our flesh reacts before a storm, or disaster- or/ we might even get zapped like a bug in the blue light- if we go running around during hightened phases of electrical activity.) We are truely conductors- so yes, we feel- and that's beautiful. Oh, so very beautiful!
I respect the aproach that we are- just because we are. Now the design ordeal-hmm, *eye brow just raised on one side, I'm biting my lower lip*- Nada, can't except that we have no reason. That 'life' has no reason. I believe the ability to 'feel' is more than a scientific- ooops. Now, I do have a grand stand on God, but- I won't pretend to have figured God out. Heck, I'm sure God is still trying to figure ME out-lol!-I know that I am!! What I can't deny however are the chemical factors in our bio-chemical make-up that react to the Lord God's presence. I'm a girl of proof in certain respects- truely I am, altho' I do ignore most sciences. I base my beliefs on what I HAVE experienced. What I KNOW to be true- what others have witnessed happen in 'unusual events'. I cannot disqualify these miracles, simply because this makes more sense. Does the concept of God really make logical sense in this advanced society?- no. I seriously don't think so- and I also am sure there are enough contracitions in the lore to conclude this notion. -However, I am acutely aware of 'the unseen'. I allow my spirit to feel for me. These are my eyes. I stopped seeing thro' human lenses at a very young age- if ever, I truely had. I quiet myself to allow what cannot be explained- speak to me, direct me(now I'm a stubborn cuss, and sometimes I don't listen) -but I do hear, and try and follow. My beliefs were not conditioned within my mind. I was raised in a home where God's name was not spoken, I was raised in a home, that the term, 'holy roller' was widely used, along with alot of other decorated dialect. I learned of the spirit, of God- of the trinity, at an extreamly young age.. and not from human propaganda. I learned of these truths- my truths, from the holy spirit, himself. This I cannot deny or blame on imagination- as the events that followed were, 'unique' and unexplainable.

I accept ALL people, all religious belifs, all cultures, all points of veiw. I respect them, however- they are not mine, and mine are not chosen, but proven to me, requardless of how outlandish, or broken in theory they are.


Love, and compassion being chalked up as nothing more than a survival trait- well, that hurts me to read. I think many survive K. without recieving love or compassion. I'm sorry- did I say 'I think'. no, no. no- my position on this one; I know. As well as many live day to day- unaware, or bitterly seasoned to not give love, or compassion. survival is definately pre-disposed, and instictual in all things- that's totally conclusive. Hmm, but what in this time we live in- this 'intellectually nurtured' hour, constitutes instinct? We're hungey- so we eat, no food- so we find some, yet, thousands die of hunger a day, while another thousand pretend they aren't aware of it- is this the instilled love, or compassion, you speak of. We need shelter to survive. Instict kicks in..so we find housing to keep from being murdered by the extream elements, right?- yet, thousands, upon thousands die each summer due to being literally fried by the sun, or the blood in their veins freeze before it can pump to their hearts in the winter.-we as a society, read of these things, and shake our head, the go to Wal-Mart!, or pass by these people in the streets, even after some have died..yes, many of whom are on their way 'to church'. Perhaps this is all part of human selective survival. You know, survival of the fittest. I mean if we are- just as the animals are..that's what they do-right? But why then K. Why do others stop. Try and produce change. Lend a hand to the diseased, take in the homeless- what makes 'them' tick. If indeed, we are all 'just energy', why do some have compassion, love-while others do not? Why? In my truth, that reason is because of a spirit which mirrors a greater image- an image which shows the reflection of mercy. An image who can only be seen when we choose to look through eyes with out a lense.

Ok- now I gotta get to Dah...oh boy- this ones gonna be something!
-Whew! I better make a stronger brew!-*corny smile*
ps- and I respect YOU, K.- now come and get me...lol!

RE: My Position; Yes, I know!

Here is a man who was born in an obscure village, the Child of a peasant woman. He worked in a carpenter shop until He was thirty, and then for three years He was an itinerant preacher. He never wrote a book. He never held an office. He never owned a home. He never had a family. He never went to college. He never put His foot inside a big city. He never traveled two hundred miles from the place where He was born. He never did one of the things that usually accompany greatness. He had no credentials but Himself. He had nothing to do with this world except the naked power of His Divine manhood. While still a young man, the tide of popular opinion turned against Him. He was turned over to His enemies. He went through the mockery of a trial. He was nailed to a Cross between two thieves. His executioners gambled for the only piece of property He had on earth while He was dying—and that was His coat. When He was dead He was taken down and laid in a borrowed grave through the pity of a friend. Such was His human life—He rises from the dead. Nineteen wide centuries have come and gone and today He is the Centerpiece of the human race and the Leader of the column of progress. I am within the mark when I say that all the armies that ever marched, and all the navies that ever were built, and all the parliaments that ever sat, and all the kings that ever reigned, put together, have not affected the life of man upon this earth as powerfully as has that One Solitary Life. --James C. Hefley

Socrates taught for 40 years, Plato for 50, Aristotle for 40, and Jesus for only 3. Yet the influence of Christ's 3-year ministry infinitely transcends the impact left by the combined 130 years of teaching from these men who were among the greatest philosophers of all antiquity. –Unknown

I have read in Plato and Cicero sayings that are very wise and very beautiful; but I never read in either of them: "Come unto me all ye that labour and are heavy laden." --Augustine

I would rather believe in God and be wrong... for what have I to lose if I am wrong? I believe. - Aria

Last edited by Aria 06-16-2010 at 10:50:24 PM

RE: My Position; 'I Don't Know'

Let me add this: We are not humans having a spiritual experience,

we are spirit having a human experience; the experience of the five

senses is a pleasure for the spirit, which can only be accessed by

the density of matter that makes up the human body.



What resides in our consciousness is the fact that we are a manifestation

of invisible energy, energy that expands, contracts, and vibrates on all

kinds of frequencies which allows us to experience emotions and physical pleasures of all kinds.



Energy never dies, is never wasted, it simply is the one force that we, all of us,

are one part of—we are not separate from anything. Most religions say we are separate, that "GOD" is out there and we are down here. The fact is: Everything, everybody, is out there. We are that which we seek. Religion wants us to believe that we need an interpreter, and that god is basically unhappy with us.



I mean no disrespect to religion, but religion is an enemy to spirituality.

Some people will say that religion and spirituality are the same. They are not even close: Religion is a man-made force coming at us and spirit is the universal force coming out of us. Spirit is pure energy and religion is polluted and contrived energy.



Peace and Light,

Dah

-ok, I did it like this because I HATE that quote botton thing-a-am- bobber!-

Dah- thanks for joining us..even if you did address my statements in a 'tell her this for me' kinda way! Look before I even pour you your cup o' beans- I want you to know, that I love you, and have absolutely NO animosity toward you. I'm a water under the bridge kinda gal, and- remember a conversation we shared once, where you began with 'That's what I love about our relationship...the fact that we can share our diffrence in veiws, and still respect each other, and remain friends.'-me too, Dah

*ok- here's your cup, m'friend*

sigh- Now, the first two lines of your statement- brilliant! Total high-five(with a slap at the hip)- the last line...eeerrr, not working for me. I have had many pleasurable experiences within the mind. Experiences that were absent of touch, taste, smell, human sight. The mind, as you know, can take us to a great deal of places- places that 'the shell' or body needs not be present for. Is our shell a hub for pleasure...hell yes!-but that's where 'pleasures of the flesh' come to play. Are these pleasures always unclean, or harmful? Hell no!-The senses truely do bridge a very credible foundation for spiritual enjoyment..as does the collective unconscience- which needs no respect of the flesh. In your theory- when we leave this vessle- we are then unable 'to feel' or enjoy any longer... well, heck, Dah, that makes death seem quite depressing. The kind of depressive outlook those of the flesh have, in accordance to death. Do I know exactly what will transpire when our body finally goes kapoot- not a clue, but, what I DO KNOW to be truth, is that when that moment comes, when our 'energy or spirit') is released, it will become what I feel all around me in my moments of solitude- both thro' the human senses, and within the mind, and to me..that is not depressing, but liberating, and fullfilling!

ok- what resides in our conscience is a mystery. Maybe you understand what resides in yours..another high-five for that one...but, I don't know, as you can not use the term 'our' in that statement. Why?- because no one knows. Scientifically there are many, many, theories- and theories, as you know are nothing more than an educated guess. What remains in the subconscience sectors of the brain's neuro-trasmitters, cannot be evaluated by anyone. not even through hypnosis- these regions remain one of the most studied bio-scientific mysteries to date, as man cannot 'tap' into that frequency, and/or nervous system successfully without causing irreversable brain damage. In which case, then the subject remains irrelevent- being able to no longer process 'normal' brain functions, in both the conscience, or the collective unconscience.

-Now the religious dealy- I don't know what 'most' religions teach. I only can share the knowledge I have from the religions I have studied. In the ones, I have been exposed to- God is not seperate, at all. He lives within each of us, He doesn't sit up on a cloud throne, gold cane in hand- just judging us...but resides within those who accept Him, and believe in Him. We bring our own judgement through the ;depth' of His presence. We accept Jesus Christ's sacrifice as an example of His love for us. We also feel, and view God, in all He has created around us. He is everywhere- He is the main conductor- the main vibration, the light- the true spirit in which we all have inherited. The scriptures clearly state- in every bible I have read, anyway, 'Heaven resides within each of us' and 'We are all part of one body' This is the religion I have been taught, I am not familiar with the ones in which you mentioned, so I can't comment on those.

Religious leaders can most definately kill spirituality- agreed. I have to ask you, though- before I continue; what is your definition of religion?
I think that just as Kim has said that the spirit is just a name we invented for energy- I think that religion is just a word as well. Look- religion doesn't pollute the mind and spirit- the mind, pollutes the mind and spirit.

That's my position: but really- truely, I don't know, I only 'feel'

-and I also respect your individual ideals, and accept them to be your own, Dah-
and know what...I'm cool with that. -Maddi

Last edited by Madelynn 06-17-2010 at 02:47:17 AM

RE: My Position; 'I Don't Know'

Aria!! Hi ya sweetums! Welcome to my circle! Ok- I'm gonna get another pot on the cooker...mmmm, hazelnut...then I'll grab ya a cup!

I'll be back as quick as kitty sprays! -belive me, Im gonna thro' that with my male feline- Cider, and you should see him shake that tail! Now that's a booty-dance, sister!! lol-
*winks*

your sissy-pus,
TJMaddi

RE: My Position; 'I Don't Know'

Like Zoinks Scoob! I had better grab another cup of coffee and get some fresh ice in the bong, I gotz some readin to do. Haha.

RE: My Position; 'I Don't Know'

You pose an interesting question Maddi. I will respond in this post with my position, and then I will read on and respond in another post to the rest of the replies if I feel so inclined or do not forget Haha, can you hear the bubbles gurgling and the cheetos bag a crunchin' Maddi? Ready? Here we go....

You wanted to hear my response sooo 'Ok here is where I stand' I believe there is value in religion, but religion is basterdized by man, like many other things I might add. It does surprise me too that so many, 67.2% huh? Haha ...that so many can have such blind faith in the existence of something as you said hypothetical, and yet still feel so passionately on the subject as well. Live thier lives around it, feel it, touch it, taste it all throughout thier days. It is almost poetic in a sense. Kind of ironic that most who follow said religions arent intellectually gifted enough to see this. And I know this for a fact as I have seen how so many have misinterpreted such beautiful concepts and metaphors stewn throughout religious texts and turned them into hatred, greed, war, racism, sexism, pedophelia and blackness of death to name a few. So while the majority of these people are passionate, I dont know if they truly understand what it is they are supposed to be passionate about. As I said there is value in religion, but I take religion from a philosophical sense rather than a literal or religious sense. The meek shall inherit the earth, there is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear, don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you, Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned, forgive, and ye shall be forgiven, all you need is love. Haha Ok that last one was John Lennon, but he is one of my prophets lol. But as I have pointed out, value in religion, it reads at times almost like poetry. But then those who claim to live by the words I have just cited also attend funerals of homosexuals, holding signs up that says "God Hates Fags". These same people will blow up doctors offices killing people because those peoples beliefs are differant than thier own, then there are those who strap bombs on thier bodies and walk out into the street or a cafe and blow themselves up killing dozens in the process all in the name of a God. Dont get me wrong, these examples are certainly the minority, but there is much hypocrisy about. These sort of acts in the name of God sound nothing like the words of Peace and Love I have heard of and read in these same religious texts. There is value in religion, but the hypocrisy perplexes me. I just wish people would read the words for themselves, see the beauty, the philosophy, the poetry in the words. And not be told by others who claim to be more knowledgable what they are to believe. Believe what you want, on whatever topic. But be well informed. Read all sides and come to your own conclusions, there are enough sheep in the world. If you are religious, live truly according to the words you hold so sacred, dont turn your nose up at a homeless man looking to eat. Dont turn a blind eye to sexual abuse just because a man of God was involved. Just dont be a hypocrite is my point I guess, I could continue but too many bong hits me thinks haha. So you wanted to know where I stand Maddi? I hope this nonsensical, rambling, typed out through a haze of smoke, over the furious gurgling ice water, around the Highway 61 Revisited music playing in the backround and beyond the echos of my coughs as they bounce off my original concert posters tacked to the wall reverberating across the room and then the out to the universe until I catch them back again on a clear summers night as they rain back down in like shooting stars as moonbeams falling into buckets layed out across my imagination I gave you some sense of where I stand the issue, let me know if I wasnt clear enough. P.S. I got some pretty good shit last night I guess Huh? Lol. I must bid you adieu, there is a bad of Funyons calling my name. Peace out, the quippy hippie. ~Spence

RE: My Position; 'I Don't Know'

Maddi,

What I mean about love and compassion being survival traits is this: If humans could not feel love and compassion towards each other, the bond we require to procreate and raise our young would not exist. If a mother cannot feel compassion and love for their child, there's no bond. Without that bond, we would not be committed to raising our children so they could carry on our genes. Also, without love and compassion, adults would not make commitments to each other and their offspring, social communities (which we need to survive) would not have developed. We are not able to survive as individuals - at least, we weren't in the beginning - so the ability to bond on an emotional level is critical.

This sounds clinical, but when you strip it down to the absolute, we are about survival. Most of our traits are within us to continue our species.

Just my thoughts -

RE: My Position; 'I Don't Know'

P.S. Wheres my danish?

My Position; 'I Don't Know'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZD_9TipDcg

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RE: My Position; 'I Don't Know'

Ok- Maryanne, I love what you added!!
The impact Christ had/has on the world is huge..and I think, that yes, there is something to be said- about the fact that Christ is still rocking the ideals of today! Even if someone is NOT into the God/Jesus thing, what Christ preached is taught, or agreed with..unless someone is just malicious. like a FTW 'kill 'em all' kinda thing!
You Aria, get an extra chocolate chip cookie, for this add-
..Looks like Kah is taking us in a new direction too- reguarding human behavior.
-hmmm-I think I'll hit one of those cookies too- somethin' bout chocolate, just gets me goin'..well, that, and Spence is bogartin' all the funyons..lol
-Maddi

RE: My Position; 'I Don't Know'

Mind if I sit down and join you? It's starting to rain outside (naturally, Bike Week in NH, it always rains!) so I have some time to take from my garden and the rally. I'll take a pass on the coffee, never touch the stuff. I drink tea...no worries, I've brought it with me.

I've been listening to this conversation with some interest. What has caught my attention is the distinction between "religion" and "spirituality". I think that anytime we find in necessary to confine spirituality into a set of rules, it becomes organized religion. Do we need some rules? Yes. And the important ones transcend religious differences. The 10 Commandments, Sermon on the Mount, Golden Rule...good advice, all. It's when any particular religion decides that it is absolutely right and that everyone must fall into step and march with their drummer, well that's when my hackles begin to rise. The fact is, the lovely old lady who stops by my house on a regular basis bearing pamphlets from her church does not know, for a fact, that her perspective is right. She comes with a "one size fits all" approach to spirituality that is shared, unquestioningly, by the people who attend her church. These people accept it without condition. They adhere to it's tenets and doctrines and dogmas and intolerances for the sake of what they believe is righteousness. They believe they are doing Gods work. To illustrate, I think we can agree that the Westboro Baptists are members of a religion, but in their message of hate and intolerance, I fail to see much spirituality. Nevertheless, they are abiding by the accepted rules of their religion, no matter who it hurts. Spirituality, on the other hand, is an individual living, growing, experiential approach to remaining in touch with that which we think of as God, the Great Spirit. There is often no book or accepted tenet to fall back on. There is no dogma to guide us. Sometimes there's not even a group. Spirituality advocates personal responsibility in our relationship with the high power and with the earth and her inhabitants.

I think it comes as no surprise to most of the people who have read my work that I am not Christian. My points of view may be a bit different than yours but the more we learn, the more we find those differences are superficial and can be overcome...imagine that...if we can do that, you and I, there is no reason why the entire world cannot. Something to strive for....

So how about this:
The consciousness that we think of as God has always existed and will always exist but purely as Spirit. In an effort to expand its own awareness, it exploded and everything you know came to be over billions of years which is, of course, the span of a moment to a being that is timeless; beforehand time never existed anyway. Everything that is or was or could be became infused with that Spirit and came to be through the infinite imagination of the All and Unmanifest Higher Power...eventually to include you and to include me.

We exist on this plane to acquire life experiences, both good and bad, because this thing we carry around in our heart of hearts is a splinter of God; immortal and eternal. We fill that spirit and when we die, we return to what we essentially are: our bodies become the earth; our spirits return to the ocean that is the Whole and we become a sort of collective unconscious where we share wisdoms and rest to be born again. It is each splinters job to complete many lifetimes to learn as much as possible. When that happens, a sort of spiritual sentience occurs allowing that individual to become pure spirit with no need to return to the body. That is heaven or nirvana. These spirits can choose to remain as Spirit Guides for others. Yes, I definately believe we are Spiritual Beings having a human experience.

But balance? No, I think we left that behind a while back.

It used to be that we lived in small communities where we depended on each other for survival. Now, well I'm having a conversation with people I've never met via electronics. It used to be that women died in childbirth and 45 was an Elder and we farmed the land and reeped what we sowed. But look at us now. We're so afraid that we've looked into the abyss and found it empty that we are terrified to die. We'll do just about anything to prolong our time here because what if there is nothing else? Or, oh my, what if God really is going to be pissed off when I get there and send me to burn in hell? So we have far more people living on this planet than the earth can support and so very few are making any attempt at all to live in balance and reduce their carbon footprint. I think we forgot to have faith. By that I mean we forgot to accept that death is a sacred part of life and to trust the Higher Power in that wisdom.

Now, about that devil...

No. I do not believe in Satan. His mythology doesn't belong to a pagan like me. Christian mythology sees a God of absolute (there's that word again!) righteousness and so needed a little dark thrown in there for comparison. Pagan gods don't have that problem, they've got dark of their own. Zeus didn't need to threaten Promethius with damnation: he was perfectly capable of tacking the boy to the mountain himself. Message to ancient Greeks: don't mess with Zeus.
They come packaged with their own inherant flaws, because they are ancient personifications of the various aspects of the All and Unmanifest. They helped the Ancients explain, well probably a very similar set of questions as these that we are discussing. Ultimately, we don't know any more than they did. I think that the gods of the old religion became the devils of the new religion. I think the new religion separated the good from the bad, the wheat from the chaffe and decided that anyone who could not come to their understanding of God would be destroyed. Oh, look, we're still doing that. But God doesn't really care what we call her/him/it. That is a petty human difference that will cease to matter the moment we cross into Spirit. God only cares that we maintain the connection. When I am in Ritual and I evoke Aphrodite or Cerridwen, Bastet or Isis, or whatever god or goddess I'm speaking with, I am connecting with that particular facet of what you think of as God . The difference between Isis and Jahovah is an illusion. The difference between you and me is an illusion. They are One. We are One. We always were. We always will be.

So onto Jesus. I like Jesus. He's my brother. Do I think he was the son of God? Yes. But then again, I think you are the daughter of God as I am. I think Jesus was an extraordinarily clear minded, evolved Spirit but still just one of us. I think he saw a different Path and beckoned us toward it. I think he tried to tell us how to live in Peace and Love and Light and, threatened by change, tradition killed him. I think he was an amazing man who knew the risk he was taking and let it be because that change was bigger than he was. More important. He was a man who laid down his life for the betterment of mankind. Wow. That is just so much cooler than a demigod who risked nothing, really, at all. I mean, if you know you're going to draw an ace, you're not really risking the pot, are you?

We've known others like Jesus, though they don't have religions in their honor, among them King and Kennedy; Ghandi and Lennon. They stood for an ideal bigger than themselves and died with that message on their lips. That is indeed evil but there's really no devil to pin that on. We did that ourselves. Just like all those wars that we blame on God. Silly human race. We don't even live up to our own expectations yet we force those expectations onto others. We fly our banner of righteousness proclaiming superior enlightenment yet forget the most basic of these truths, to do unto others as we would have them do unto us. Instead, we do unto others first. So much for enlightenment. And while I concede that, in truth, we just don't know, still, you gotta have faith.

Okay, time for that second cup of tea. Still no sunshine outside. I guess I'll hang around for a while.

Peace.
JL

RE: RE: My Position; 'I Don't Know'

RE: My Position; 'I Don't Know'

Your mind is like the control center of your body.
It helps direct your thoughts, your actions, and your emotions.
Before God’s Spirit made his home inside you, you ran that control center the way you thought best.
Chances are, the culture and practices of those around you helped shape your thoughts and
Consequently your actions. But once you invited God’s spirit into your life, there was a change
In influence, leadership, and direction.
Choosing to renew your mind is the key to making that change complete. God guides and directs your mind.
But he does not control it. God provides you with the power to transform your mind, to change the way you think so that your mind is more in line with his heart-to allow your mind to become all he originally designed it to be.
The Greek word for conform actually translates as” masquerade.” Without god in your life, you live a charade and are not your authentic self. God’s transformation of who you once pretended to be into who he created you to be is an ongoing process. Part of this process is testing what you believe by putting your faith into practice. Experiments help prove scientific truths. As you practice what you have learned about changing the way you think, you will better understand who you are and what God’s desire is for your life.

Corinthia Sugar

RE: My Position; 'I Don't Know'

JLorian- Not only can you hang here- I am an empress of teas- let me know when you run low- I got an arsenal of herb in the cupboard!

I agree a thousand fold! I don't think religion is 'ugly' I think to let any human being instill 'one strict mindset' to entire following is absurd. I think that essentially spirituality is more than just traveling/or harnessed energy. I do. I believe that the other term for spirituality should be 'power within' and that these conditions, and interpretations vary from person to person- heck- from all living things. Each is unique, no two alike- so how can our spirits be identical? Now religion is a kind of structure where many do believe exactly the same. Not all do though. Sometimes individualism is embraced. To collectively assume that 'every' religion is poison, and having a society who 'strictly' follows this 'mindset'- is to me- just another 'religion' wearing a mask. I don't think I am more spiritual than Dah, or Kah, or- Aria, Spence, or John- or you.Nor is anyone more spiritual than me, Our awareness may vary- who knows..I don't know. What I am preaching is this..if your path works for you, and you are growing, and breathing- really breathing, because of this..if what you believe gets your endorphins off- then go with it! Live and let live, but, damn- don't try and force your 'unique beliefs ' down individuals throats- unless they are on their knees with their mouths open.

-to do this to someone who finds contentment in their spirituality, in their religious traditions, is disrespecting freedom of choice!

That little old lady with the pamphlets is probably at peace with her choices, and yes her organization is trying to recruit others into' paradise'. All someone has to say when they open the door- is 'thank you, take the darn pamphlet- show her some respect for ballsing up enough to knock on doors-that usually slam in her face..then 'choose to either read it, or don't.'

Hey, I think OP is a free thinking society- a family of artists from ALL over the globe who share a very strong connection- the love of the written word, and expression of the mind!- So, if someone on here brings a pamphlet to my poetry page once in awhile..I'm not going to jump their shit about it; I'm going to show them dignity and respect- and, thank them- then make my own 'unique' choice.

Love your take on this subject!- and I would give a town full of twinkies to be at bike week with ya!-
-peace, Maddi

RE: My Position; 'I Don't Know'

Corinithia-

Ok, question for ya? Do you believe spirituality can be valid without the bible??Without a set belief system of deliverance.
I'm curious..

also- Do you feel that emotions are human survival instincts/ in the sense they lead to sexual behaviors, and offspring?-

Here's a chair sweetheart, welcome!! Now, whatcha drinking?

-Maddi

RE: My Position; 'I Don't Know'

-I really do hate the quote thingy- but- I thinks I gots to use it right now- cause...Kim, we are drivin to a new place- I think..

Is human behaviors on the bases of love and compassion, predisposed due to survival?
Yes, I'll bite that!- You bet. Yah!!!- We agree, again...welcome back best poetry friend! lol-kiss

I do think that procreation is 'suposed' to be based on love (which to a believer, falls into the God thing, again) -but on a scientific level, not in todays society- so much. Not sure if ever. I mean- earlier generations did the marriage thing, but think about 'why' did they commit to one person?- Possibly values, and not instinct. Look at arranged marriages- thes people meet for the first time on their wedding day, and 'procreate' that night-or try.,lol- SO often today, sexual relations are casual. Just a 'hook-up' kinda deal. Actually it almost seems that abstenance before marriage is obsolete. -So is sex is an instictual survival 'mechanism' (how funny is that, lol)..and love, and compassion, predisposed- to lead us to procreate...whats up with sex being so free? So 'casual'?- I mean, if we are designed to connect emotionally, and that is what should triggar the physical encounter; and this is instinct, why are we skipping- the love part- and just going for gratification? I am a very sexual woman, but I lose the desire for ' whew! let me catch my breath, and grab some water' lovins' , if I am not emotionally connected- I think stranger sex- is gross. I do. I mean unknown body fluids, and spit- from someone I am not connected with- yuck. Now if I am emotionally, and spiritually connected, I crave those fluids like a vampire at a blood bank! -why is this. How come I am selective while others are not? Shouldn't this instinctual behavior exsist in all people- if in some..

-whatcha think?

ps- sex talk of any kind totally constitues a mocha latte/ or an ice cold beer-
what are ya drinkin'? Hey John, no coco allowed in the summer, hun- there are 'rules'!- lol, how bout a rootbeer-*winks*


ok, I got my iced mocha...and we're going down a different path for sure!

Love and compassion...when humans were "new" and living out in the "wild"...not in heated houses with cars and grocery stores right down the road. Humans needed each other in very different ways than they do now. Having an emotional bond often meant the difference between life and death. Men hunted and provided food, women raised the next generations. The system worked perfectly, and being attracted to your mate on both a physical and mental/emotional level assured that the species would continue. Why leave someone you care about? He hunts and provides for you and your offspring, you keep him healthy, in a nice home (cave - lol), and raise his offspring to adult hood. A win-win.

Fast forward to the modern world...women don't need men to provide anymore. Men don't need women to raise their kids and keep a nice shelter. The balance is completely different.

Another point...way back when, in early man's time, different traits were more desirable in a mate. For example, women looked for a strong tall man. Such a man had the potential to provide better. Women looked for smart, caring men - again, better providers plus a bond. A bond to keep the family unit intact, which gave offspring a much greater chance of reaching adulthood. Men looked for women who could cook well, provide a nice shelter, and produce children. Men looked for a woman who was a good mom.

Now...all we look for is sexual attraction, sexual active-ness. After all, a woman can provide for herself - who cares of the man can't or won't? Can he "turn her on"? And men look for a trophy...sexy hot "look at what I got" type of girl. Who cares if she's capable of mothering? Our initial evaluation of mates is based on looks and prowess.

The world we were genetically designed for does not exist anymore.

Luvs ya, Maddi!!

RE: My Position; 'I Don't Know'

'Another point...way back when, in early man's time, different traits were more desirable in a mate. For example, women looked for a strong tall man. Such a man had the potential to provide better. Women looked for smart, caring men - again, better providers plus a bond. A bond to keep the family unit intact, which gave offspring a much greater chance of reaching adulthood. Men looked for women who could cook well, provide a nice shelter, and produce children. Men looked for a woman who was a good mom.'-K.

Now K. where I come from us gals better be damn good a cookin' and we best be takin' care of those little carpet kings too- because around here the idea of 'family' moments are when the wife and kids go out to garage to let "daddy' know trhat suppers on! lol, well- not all the families here- but let me tell ya... a lotta of 'em! lol!
I think the decline of western civilized family commitment, and ideals are media based! I don't think they are fully attributed to womens independance. I mean indendance, to some men, is a very desireable trait, in a woman. I think men want less of the 'needy' kind of gal- for long term lovins. Men have an incredible burden lifted from them today- considering most homes in our culture are two- income based now! Well, with what corporate spending is today- I would say two-incomes, in a blue-collar family is almost mandatory!- we can hit that road next..smiles.

I agree that 'we have evolved' with diffrent needs.. absolutely. I don't think that the first tribes were completely bent with the love card though. From what I remember, I did a paper on the polital family structure: then vs, now, like a million years ago- and I remember, reading that women were looked at in the sense of complete sexual objects- not in a bombshell way- but in a multi-family paligamist kinda way! The shape of their hips, and the fullness of their breasts were marked, and kept record of- the most saught after women were the more volumtuous, with wider hips, and more breast density. -(with my 'grandmas' hips- I would have been the Marilynn Monroe of the teepee! lol!) - Anyways- I think a more civilized, modern society, and 'religion' brought on the love committment card...or it's possible anyway- then instead of continually evolving in a positive direction- we regressed, through the stimulation, and influence of media. The playboy syndrome- and the woman, as a prize. -Then we began to see a rise of 'strong women liberals' through the media, press, early in the 1900s..
Maybe, we are just becoming so self- absorbed, that needing 'each other' is becoming obsolete! -sad. But is that is the case.-, (and I mean look at test tube babies- invetro pregnancies- it's possible) Than that would mean that ultimately -emotions, love,- these gifts are not a survival instinct..but a gift. hmmmm-

Luv talkin' to you Kim, soooo cool!

Hey, I made pie!!.
-Maddi

Last edited by Madelynn 06-17-2010 at 03:00:28 PM

RE: My Position; 'I Don't Know'

Ok, I want a Slushy.

Yes, by mothers intuition, and by trial and error, there is hot and cold,
And if a being keeps the desire to keep getting burned, then obviously there is nothing learned. And as time goes by if a person opens their eyes they can learn by watching foolish people do all the mistakes for them.
Here in Tn, there is a show on in the morning radio, about the stupidest criminals.
I wished there was a tv show on positive actions that produce good things, and shows the
Process, and steps that lead to success, instead of letting us all in that dark about things.
Like a miracle show,

Question 2, well there are men’s eyes that just make you want to breed, but then you have the questions, how to feed them, and that is to only if you are conscious to what and who you are, I assume that everyone knows the term horny as a jack rabbit.
I guess we can thank our farmers for the flesh carnival we have, what is in the milk anyway?
Oh and MTV, and crack messed this world up.
Along with greed and hate, I better quit here because I could say more on this part , lol…

To find true love is rare, and it could be looking at you with a stare, and as time goes by
Hmm they don’t care, wow I made a rhyme.

Oh you are lucky Maddi to have a man like John E WordSlinger,
His poems to you are true, modern, and real, blessed are you two.

Oh ya BTW, when are you all going to finish Bloodilicious, and when are you WS
Going to help me finish At the Helm of the Silence Machine.
Ok yall I have to go, bye
CS

Chief Seattle

CHIEF SEATTLE'S LETTER

"The President in Washington sends word that he wishes to buy our land. But how can you buy or sell the sky? the land? The idea is strange to us. If we do not own the freshness of the air and the sparkle of the water, how can you buy them?

Every part of the earth is sacred to my people. Every shining pine needle, every sandy shore, every mist in the dark woods, every meadow, every humming insect. All are holy in the memory and experience of my people.

We know the sap which courses through the trees as we know the blood that courses through our veins. We are part of the earth and it is part of us. The perfumed flowers are our sisters. The bear, the deer, the great eagle, these are our brothers. The rocky crests, the dew in the meadow, the body heat of the pony, and man all belong to the same family.

The shining water that moves in the streams and rivers is not just water, but the blood of our ancestors. If we sell you our land, you must remember that it is sacred. Each glossy reflection in the clear waters of the lakes tells of events and memories in the life of my people. The water's murmur is the voice of my father's father.

The rivers are our brothers. They quench our thirst. They carry our canoes and feed our children. So you must give the rivers the kindness that you would give any brother.

If we sell you our land, remember that the air is precious to us, that the air shares its spirit with all the life that it supports. The wind that gave our grandfather his first breath also received his last sigh. The wind also gives our children the spirit of life. So if we sell our land, you must keep it apart and sacred, as a place where man can go to taste the wind that is sweetened by the meadow flowers.

Will you teach your children what we have taught our children? That the earth is our mother? What befalls the earth befalls all the sons of the earth.

This we know: the earth does not belong to man, man belongs to the earth. All things are connected like the blood that unites us all. Man did not weave the web of life, he is merely a strand in it. Whatever he does to the web, he does to himself.

One thing we know: our God is also your God. The earth is precious to him and to harm the earth is to heap contempt on its creator.

Your destiny is a mystery to us. What will happen when the buffalo are all slaughtered? The wild horses tamed? What will happen when the secret corners of the forest are heavy with the scent of many men and the view of the ripe hills is blotted with talking wires? Where will the thicket be? Gone! Where will the eagle be? Gone! And what is to say goodbye to the swift pony and then hunt? The end of living and the beginning of survival.

When the last red man has vanished with this wilderness, and his memory is only the shadow of a cloud moving across the prairie, will these shores and forests still be here? Will there be any of the spirit of my people left?

We love this earth as a newborn loves its mother's heartbeat. So, if we sell you our land, love it as we have loved it. Care for it, as we have cared for it. Hold in your mind the memory of the land as it is when you receive it. Preserve the land for all children, and love it, as God loves us.

As we are part of the land, you too are part of the land. This earth is precious to us. It is also precious to you.

One thing we know - there is only one God. No man, be he Red man or White man, can be apart. We ARE all brothers and sisters after all."


Be Merry, Florish

Last edited by WordSlinger 06-17-2010 at 04:48:32 PM